This episode is taken from one of my recent live shows, the #thursdayroundtable
with my 4 brilliant panelists:
Guest: William Chu, MD, FAAP
Guest: Benjamin Foster
Guest: Dan Diamond, MD
Guest: Sebastien Girard, MBA
We talked about how staff has been affected due to covid, preparing and adapting to the rapid changes in Healthcare HR/Staffing.
Helping Organizations Find Top Talent
Rollis Fontenot III:
Very excited to have all of you here today, top left hand corner, I have Sebastian Girard from atrium health, a very large a wonderful organization, out of the North Carolina, of the Carolinas I should say. Welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me always honored to be on the show.
Yes, yes. Appreciate I also have Mr Dan diamond in the top right hand corner, top right hand corner my screen, Dr. Dan diamond. The disaster doc. Welcome to the show.
Thank you, my friend, it is good to be here. You know, I appreciate all the work that you're doing during these difficult times and it's just great to see your voice out there and I've enjoyed watching your show as you bring together some great voices so this is going to be a great discussion I'm excited.
Thank you. Thank you. Well I'm glad you're here. Glad to have you here today, and bottom left hand corner we have Benjamin foster he's a he's my culture guy today How are you doing,
I'm doing great Rollis. Glad to be on with you man it's always good to get a chance to talk.
Yes sir from IMC culture. And then we have bottom right hand corner from nightlight pediatric care, a company I love. We've been involved with you for many years, and really appreciate you being on Dr. Bill Chu Williams. How are you, good. Thanks for having me.
I appreciate you being here. And if those of you who watched our first panel with these with these same folks with the exception of Dr. Chu, we had Zawadi Brian on there and it was a wonderful session, she wasn't able to make it today and I'm so happy that she was able to get Dr. Chu and Dr to accept it. So thank you for filling in today Dr. Chu. Yeah, no problem at all.
Yeah, appreciate you. So we got lots of talking about today there's been lots of things going on, you know we got the vaccine now we didn't have the vaccine before, that was one thing has been changed. You know how is that going to be distributed. And how is staffing being affected, so many different topics. I'd like to start off with that first one though. What about the vaccine, how does that change things for you. Maybe you can, can you start off with that. Oh, wait a second. Dr. Chu. for that.
He got his second shot yesterday so I was afraid I would be a lot more sluggish today, to be honest, but I woke up feeling alright so not as bad as you heard, oh yeah my second my second shot was better than the first one,
I would say the same thing, less like the first one, my arm was so sore, I wanted to wear a sling for the day. But today I like I can actually lift my hand above my head, so that's good.
Oh wow, okay well let's let. We actually had one of my guests last week, Dr. Alaska she had she had no issues on the first but the second one gave her a little bit of a hard time for about 30. Once the 36 hours passed she was good.
Yeah, and that's kind of what I've been hearing is that even people who have a hard time with the second shot where they get fevers or agenus headaches and is that it's really transient like it goes away within like 24 to 36 hours.
That's good. That's good to hear. And so with that in mind, I wanted to ask you, Sebastian. How is that working in terms of a plan on how to get the vaccination out to the folks who need it.
Yes, well there is a couple thing right and there's a big news that came out actually was it this morning or yesterday where we're, we're partnering with the printers we're partnering with which is Charlotte Speedway partnering with Manuel to deliver a million vaccine by the summer, and it's really a matter of going to the frontline teammates first and 75 and up and we're paying attention, maybe they're going to change the age, and then opening up to everybody in healthcare and into communities, but that partnerships where we can distribute and administered 1 million vaccine is going to have such an impact on their communities. I also want to answer the first question you were asking which is what will be the impact on healthcare of vaccinations. So first, first I will say please get your vaccine. Right. That's number one. Number one thing to do. Our infectious disease doctor, Dr. Besser already she was named top 50 baddest woman in the US, and we were all saying if she get it. That mean it's good and we all need to get it, and she got it so this is a very good sign. But the impact will be so we're counting functional vacancy rate so you have your vacancy rate and you have the functional vacancy rate and functional vacancy rate is positions that are not open for recruiting, but because of leave of absence PTO quarantine being sick. Those teammates are not working. So the pain that is on the floor is failed like if you are short staffed, but you're not sure staff is there as a teammate is in quarantine. And that functional vacancy rate is pretty high compared to the vacancy rate so the vacancy rate is manageable, but what's hurting is the people that are in quarantine have a family member and exposure in the household. So the vaccine is going to really help that. And then that's going to bring back into into the system, all those teammates that were keeping at home for safety. And that mean faster care, you know, for a patient keeping our community safe so huge impact get the vaccine. Yep.
Very good. And, from your perspective, Benjamin, what are you seeing or hearing in terms from a cultural perspective, how is that affecting things with the vaccines that are improving things. Yeah,
well and, and maybe it's a different angle to that that we're looking at. So, there are several states that post their vaccination data online, and we're seeing. Unfortunately, some discrepancies in terms of the racial demographics of people getting the vaccine. Right. And so it's disproportionately going to Caucasian caregivers, and we're having a tough time but our clients and getting, particularly you know black African American caregivers, comfortable taking the vaccine. And, as shown in the numbers. And we're certainly working with them on, you know how to address the concerns, and, you know, we don't have to necessarily get into all the reasons why that may be the case, but it's very interesting to see and I welcome the other folks that are you know in the hospitals all day long, particularly black nurses you know docs and text. There's a healthy amount of skepticism and fear and taking the vaccine, and that is then correlating into the vaccine that is primarily, you know, affecting people of color or disproportionately affecting people of color, not necessarily been given to people of color who are the caregivers. And so we're certainly you know trying to be creative and think about new ways that we can communicate the safety of the vaccine to that population. And we're encouraging our clients to not like go towards mandating it right because you know force people to take it right and so that's really how we've been supporting our clients from a culture standpoint, and it is something that you know is on the radar for.
Yeah, I think it's, it's been the same for us, and Benjamin is that, you know, we do have a large proportion of the staff, the healthcare staff that declined getting the vaccine, we didn't we didn't make it mandatory for our staff to, and there's a lot of skepticism and misconceptions about the vaccine that cause people to not want to get it. So, I mean what we've been trying to do is just, you know, letting people talk to people that they trust about the vaccine. So like I've been in all of our department meetings like with our front office staff, we have a meeting, I chat with them, you know, have an open forum for them to ask questions what what are they hearing about the vaccine and kind of dispel some of the myths and misconceptions that they're that they're hearing and same with our back office staff, and then tell them you know I tell my providers that, you know, be open to having these conversations with your staff too, because they trust you and having a one on one conversation with somebody that you trust is going to change your mind a lot more than just kind of like blaring it over a megaphone.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And then I just want to mention from Europe standpoint, Diamond, it's almost like we're in the middle of a long standing disaster. Any principles that you have come across in the past that you think kind of apply to this situation or do you see any applications here.
Yeah, I think listening is really important. When we, I worked in the refugee camp in Thailand. Back in the 80s I was there for three months, and the World Health Organization came in and started doing immunizations. In the winter months. And what happened when they went through and started doing the T dab vaccines for everybody is some of the guys noticed that their external plumbing shrunk a little bit, because it was cold but they assumed it was the vaccine. And so the chief said we're not doing these vaccines The World Health Organization's obviously trying to sterilize us. And then I took care of 18, cases of neonatal tetanus, and I'm the only guy I know that's taking care of neonatal tetanus. And it's, and it was horrible. I can't get those images out of my head and that was what you know 38 almost 40 years ago, and I can still see those babies and I can still hear those babies screaming, you know, and it's really easy for people to think well you know vaccines. It's like when you see the power of a vaccine, or around there the lack of vaccine and what happens. That's huge. But the way through. That is to say, help me to understand, to come alongside their leadership in the camp and say help us to understand what, why have you made this decision. and how can we, how can we have a helpful discussion about this. You know I debated whether or not to put on, on Facebook that I had my vaccine, I decided now I'm gonna take the stand. And I had a troll. And the troll went after me and talked you know he posted a video of some Doctor Who. Back in 2010, by the way, was disciplined by his medical licensing board. But this doctor went on saying that 63 out of 65 women end up sterile. After taking the vaccine, I'm gone, are you kidding me. Are you kidding me, it's not true. But and I don't What I don't understand is why some people feel compelled to spread lies to, I don't understand their agenda. But that's what we're up against is people that are willing to put out things that are blatantly false. And then you know other people are looking at it gone. I wonder you know is Big Pharma making all this money and it's all just a scam and it's not real and it's like, Yeah, no, that's not it. This is real. So I, you know, am I willing to have trolls come after me yes because I want to take a stand and say I believe this vaccine is safe. I believe this vaccine is necessary. And if you want to get life back to normal again. Get in line and get your vaccine and let's, let's get back to, you know, a more reasonable situation where we don't have to do all this social distancing.
Yeah. Sebastian you're about to say something I think just piggybacking on everything that has been said but what Benjamin is, is the situation is presenting is very real. And it's also very real toward our communities right so the first question is how do you bring your own teammates, you know, to get to the point of taking the vaccine, but same with the communities and I think we, you know, the one thing that made me always shiver a little bit is when we say well, the virus doesn't discriminate. And it is agree with that, the virus is discriminating in the sense that if we look into who ended up more impacted at either to the virus to the mortality or or even, even to unemployment right an impact of a virus can be, you didn't get it but your employer isn't a you know it's a restaurant and you end up losing your job, and it is it is the minorities or the underserved. And if we truly want to bring back, health, or economy, whatever is your motivation, it go true elevating the underserving bringing to head to them help hope and healing right so so finding the way to resonate to the communities that this vaccine is going to get us to where, where we need to go.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes total sense. So, how are you seeing this affecting things, perhaps, let's say later on in 2021, where do you see this, how do you see this playing out do you feel like a lot of these things will be worked out in terms of the vaccine being distributed Is this something that we'll be able to button up by this year or what are you seeing from your end. I don't know if Do you want to start off with that maybe.
Yeah, I mean, you know, right now, it kind of like just from seeing the news and, and what's, what's out there, it seems like a bit of a mess. At the moment, like some some places are doing a lot better than other places because I don't think that there has been like a national plan to distribute the vaccine it's been like every state literally seems like they're doing something different and has a different tier, and has a different order rolling out and has a different timeline. And so, I think they will get all sorted out. I think a lot of it, you know, is going to require a little bit of more organization, a little bit of patience on our part. But, you know, I think by you know at least by the middle or end of this year, then anybody who wanted a vaccine should be able to get one I don't see a reason why people wouldn't be able to like, you know, like right now there's, you know more vaccines that are that are distributed but not given than vaccines that actually have been given. So, you know, I think that those things just need to be ironed out, and I mean the supply is there the demand is there. I think the distribution and administration just needs to be ironed out.
So judges and forum we've got quite a few comments so I'm going to give Joe an opportunity to let us know what those comments are that maybe we can kind of comment back on some of those.
Yes, so I'm gonna say hello to Kim Lamontagne she said Hi everyone from Sarasota, Florida. She said a great lineup of speakers Rollis, and we also have Alicia Cornell, who is also joining us she said, we have a daily discussion about taking the vaccine. And also Noelle said, It's incredible to hear the conspiracy theories, Dan, to your point, get the vaccine, or don't and just be quiet if your opinion as fabricated Alicia says, I've had a lot of my colleagues and family members contact me with a lot of questions about getting the vaccine and finding reliable data. I agree with Nicole's. There are many times when your opinion should be kept to yourself, especially if people see you as a thought leader, or voice of authority. It couldn't, it could hurt the efforts and making people say, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Do you feel, and I don't know Benji if you want to touch on this do you feel that it is a situation where the vaccine isn't available or do you feel there's more of a distrust of taking the vaccine which one is the is the bigger issue of the two. Yeah, unfortunately brows i think is more the ladder of a lack of trust or distrust and taking the back thing. And again you know I understand, not the doctor got the you know the today's conversation but there is a history of vaccinations we think about the ski project right that has that is a part of, particularly black Americans history, maybe overall distress, and then you know you layer on top, you know, still the bit of the differences in, you know, maternal mortality rates. And so there's, you know, given pain medication and the discrepancies there and all of that that you know the research has unfortunately you know there's a general lack of trust or distrust in the vaccine. And then when you layer on top some of the most respected health advisors and people of color communities are a lot of the folks that are nurses techs right or adopt. And if that population has a healthy skepticism. They are certainly you know influencing you know their friend and family base. And so, you know, we've been certainly encouraging leaders in health care facilities that think about how to get creative and different in approaching your colleagues because they are the voices to their communities. And if they don't feel comfortable you can pretty much bet that their extended family is not because that's you the extended family is going to for health advice, not their Doc, they're going to who they know is a part of their blood, that's working in the healthcare community. And, you know, so that's, as you can see I'm pretty passionate about this one because I'm nervous about, again, a disease that is disproportionately affecting you know people of color. And we as healthcare providers who are able to get the vaccine that are not getting it right now for a variety of reasons that you know we haven't necessarily listened to what they are saying to Dan's point to try and figure out I will How can we address your concerns. So now you can be an advocate for your community, right when we do get to the point where we can distribute the vaccine to the community is that you know I think, you know, we certainly are focusing our effort around that we think we can have a big impact or organizations can have a big impact on how they influence their culture, and is maybe a linchpin in how we can turn the corner on this thing.
Yeah, absolutely. smashed it on if you want to add to that part but I'd like to see what what do you think in terms of what can we do to move the needle from what you're seeing in terms of people trusting it more.
I really agree with what was said and I think this one is a tough one because listening is important, understanding is important, and putting yourself in the shoes like what Benjamin was saying is a very real situation where there's an history and there's a cultural component to that is theory and understanding we are in extraordinary time, but we cannot erase history, because we are an extraordinary time in fear is a very real sentiment is a very real emotion, so I think we said it which is it's not a matter of forcing. It's a matter of listening of educating of demonstrating. True, true, true time and results and storytelling that the vaccine is indeed working without, you know, the side effects that scared so many people. And into some extent. There's also a component of accepting that people will think differently. Right, even if in accepting while trying to bring the mass to where we need to go. So, yeah, I think I think leading with empathy and compassion. Regarding vaccination is a way to go, and respect. Respect. Absolutely. Can I can I show you a little picture Ross, sorry.
I'll go ahead Joe.
Sorry to interrupt, but we can't hear it on the zoom call, but only, and everyone is hearing some music in the background. Okay, loud. Okay, there is a better. Let me. Give it, give it about a minute and it should, it should calm down now. Go forward to answer my question is, was it good music that's what I've heard different, I've had different watchers telling me that they like it when music is in the background so I was trying to make it where it wasn't you know distracting but at the same time we have some level of music so well they can always put on their own music, you know. So here's a picture I want us to kick around a little bit. This is fascinating. And I don't know if you if you can spotlight that for a sec Ross or not but, yeah, see I can, I can make it. So I can do you know if I'm looking at from, from my angle. It might look like a circle and then Benjamin is looking at and gone Nana it's clearly a square. Yeah, Ross comes in and goes, Oh, you guys are nuts Bannister triangle. But it's all three. And, and we really can't understand until we're willing to consider other people's perspectives. So from for me to say, you know, you shouldn't share your comments because they're not true. is challenging because from that person's perspective they are true. That's why they're sharing them. And you know so when I have when I had this troll on my site, sharing this stuff about how the vaccine causes infertility. I know it's not true. But from their perspective, it looks like it is true. In, and that could be for a variety of reasons but what I need to do is be able to listen. It's tough because social media is not the best place to listen. Because I don't necessarily, you know, want to give a platform for somebody to put a bunch of videos up that aren't true. You know, we have an OB GYN doc that graduated from Dartmouth saying that there's nanobots in the vaccine and Bill Gates is trying to track all of our all of our bio metrics, including blood pressure pulse, when we take our medications what we eat and how often we have sex. And that our bodies have been turned into a giant 5g antenna by the heavy metals that we've said, This is serious because you know I can't even get my phone to keep charge and connect to the internet and half the time so you know this stuff doesn't make it doesn't make sense.
So, but I think it, you know, understanding that people have different perspectives, and they look real to them. And that my view is inadequate because I only see with these 63 year old white guy eyes that I need to come alongside people that are different and say, help me to understand your perspective.
Yeah. What What advice would you give systems or organizations, start with you, Benjamin on how to, how to build. I guess how to build it out where it will be more attractive for those who are minorities to actually give it a shot and, kind of, you know, filter out some of the noise.
Yeah. Some of this we've done in our own circle of family and friends it's talk to the folks that do feel comfortable about getting the vaccine that are in that community. Right, and and get their thought on you know what led to their decision process, ask, you know, their comfort level, maybe sharing with their colleagues on that. And then also asking those same folks, you know, what do they think will be the thing that kind of will convince you know, a greater population, particularly of people of color to take the vaccine, and then kind of build a strategy from crowdsourcing a bit, right, because there are clinicians out there that have taken it. I would argue that clinicians listening to clinicians right and then those people call it clinicians that have taken the vaccine, believe in it are will probably be the biggest influencers, to the folks that still have serious concerns, and again it is primarily people well women of color right who, who we've seen so far have been concerned within NASA, a big percentage of the healthcare base, and a big percentage of the healthcare influencers in their friends and family network.
I've heard, I've heard a lot about physicians and I heard about nurses taken. What about folks like EBS and those those are cafeteria. I mean, these other. Are they also be putting to the forefront and look I'm taking I'm trusting this I'm taking this. Have you seen very much of that going on. Maybe Sebastian if you want to touch on that or exact same thing right so so if we go with the assumption that that minorities might have a different opinion toward, not all of them but in general can have a different opinion toward the vaccine. The second we go into the lower salary that we can have into the organization, and you're looking to your your your demographic mix and then you can have the answer. Now, they've been offered it the same way than anybody else, right so if I'm an EBS person and I'm working in a hot unit or COVID unit I'll be offered to have the vaccine, and then same thing. They might accept or my shared concern. And we just deal with it the same way. So it's not just approaching the ABS differently than the physician or the nurse, it's the exact same approach, and they give us the exact same offer like in our case, an RN that was never into a unit that they can be exposed with COVID was none this leaf put into the priority list right it was truly the frontline, so the EBS had the same same categorization, to be able to do so. Absolutely.
So I want to ask you, do you, I noticed you said in your organization you're not requiring it. Do you think that organizations should consider requiring it or just continuing to make it optional. And if you are going to make it optional. How long do you think you can do that if we if the if the needles just not moving not enough people are taking it.
Yeah, I mean that's tricky cuz like you want to make it optional because I think giving options builds trust right if you make it mandatory then build that level of trust goes away. So I think like that so we're just kind of taking it as it goes right now is to make it to make it optional I think people still need to hear more people need to see more information there. Some people feel like they're, you know they need more data and or more options you know we have two vaccines that are out, but we have a couple more they're in the pipeline so you know why some people are skeptical and they're like well, you know, why not wait to see what the other ones show. And so, you know, I think that's all reasonable things to do, you know, you know, as long as everybody's still taking the same precautions as at work, you know, making sure that they're, they're wearing their peepee you know i i don't i don't fault people for wanting to wait.
Okay, there's a flip side though. My father in law was in the hospital with congestive heart failure and renal failure. Back at the beginning of the pandemic and got infected by a staff member, and died. So we put our patients at increased risk if we're not willing to get vaccinated as well it's not all about us, it's about, You know, we're taking care of sick people that don't have COVID.
Think about that. Wow, okay what, but then also to Benjamin's point earlier if we already have an issue with trust I would imagine if you're rushing people and all you got to go out and take it by such and such date. then the trust probably goes down even more. If they're already having trouble with it says it's just not an easy issue, what do you think measurement
is tough Rollis and no I mean, is there a trust issue but then there's a disengagement issue, and and separately. I am scared to death at the speed at which we're gonna see the nursing gap explode. Right. Because, you know, he pre COVID we were on a, what a raised a million nurse gap. And, and just knowing what they've had to go through this year, knowing all the challenges that they've been facing and this thing has been going on for a long time. Right. And so the wear and tear on the nursing workforce. Do they layer on kind of a force or mandate, they may actually, you know, be the that the final. You know the final straw to break the camel's back so you know we certainly encourage folks to be thoughtful, and then also understand you know some of the, I I get it the financial decisions that are being made that you know, although we may not force you to take the vaccination, but we may now take away, pandemic pay if you get sick or get COVID and have to quarantine. Right. You know, that's no longer be eligible if you have not taken the vaccine. So, yeah, you're not mandating it but now you're, you're messing with people's money if they don't take the vaccine. Um, so yeah I get 100% all the things that to think about, um, and Doctor choose point. You know, I certainly would encourage organizations to at least let all of the the kind of major vaccines to be out there. Before we start getting into those conversations around mandating or removing some of the endemic types of aid to support the workforce to drive vaccinations nation.
Well we've tried to solve the roles problem here in 30 minutes and we're able to quite get there yet. Well, I want to move on. I want to move on. But before we do that folks in the comments what are your, what was some of your best advice you'd like to give to those who are watching. What was your thoughts on this, have an ego let us know if you've taken the vaccine and if you use came out okay with it, that can all help right, we're all sharing and Joe Do you have comments that we need to read off before I go to my next portion of our program.
I do. First of all know wanted to say, um she really liked Dan's illustration, she said love the picture Dan Ferris was talking to Alicia and she said, I agree Leisha fear is one of the greatest hydrants amongst the minority race, in addition to last, lack of trust due to historical events. And then, Alicia said, it takes a community to influence a community, my family member owns a behavioral health company and after our conversations about the vulnerable population that she serves and the safety of the people that work with them. I encouraged her to get the vaccine, and to share positive thoughts about why she did it to protect herself and her family at home. Also Alicia said, fair is absolutely the history counts because we have felt that we have been misled in many many times with negative outcomes so why should I trust this news now. And no all said great point 125 million nurses left the bedside in 20 21.25 right.
So that's a lot, because I mean 1.2 5 million that there's only 4 million nurses before that, so that were licensed the last time I looked 3 million working. So that's, that's some pretty rough numbers. Hopefully we can turn that thing around.
So I want to actually Raleigh's we pretty much stopped all graduate nurse training in 2020, we get it right. But you know there were no preceptors around. You know, there was no you know education going on all those grad nurses from 2020 have been delayed a year or two. So it's, you know, there's some macro economic issues facing
the nursing workforce. And one of the issues, maybe you guys can tell if you see a change in this. I remember when, when COVID first started, it said, Well, you can't work in ICU because you only been working case management for the past, you know, three years. Now, granted, the nurse has several years of ICU experience and maybe 15 years being a nurse, but the past couple of years they hadn't been in case management, and so well no we can't we can't use you right now, or if they've been out of the game for two years, but they have 1015 years of experience, why, why can't we use these folks because that part of that 4 million license versus 3 million working if we got another million that left. I mean, are we going to have to make some choices like that where we're going to kind of ease up on some of these requirements, maybe you can start us off with that Sebastian and maybe then Dr. Chu.
Yeah, I can my neighbors doing construction so if there's a drill in the background I'm sorry and don't have the control on that. So it will become about upskilling and reskilling, So this is the first thing right so first of all there's a way to bring the knowledge backup. The second one is maybe the person that was in case management for 15 years is not the right person to go into the ICU, but there's maybe somebody let's say that is in your urgent care that is in your labor and delivery, that that is, you know, was in the needy, a year ago and then your case management nurse could go replace that person and then that person would be the one into the ICU. So there's way to do it like for example at atrium health we rescale and upskill over 3000 nurses. Now we've not used them all, but just to get them ready. And it's not just a matter of reassigning them into ICU, COVID, it's maybe they can go into primary care, and then we can use primary care to go help there and then that's the person is going to go to the ICU because they have the experience right so it's a little bit of a puzzle. But it is it is it is possible.
Every good Archie What do you guys say on that.
And I mean I can't speak to it as well as Sebastian because we don't have a lot of nurses on our staff at night but I know you know there's a, there's also like a large pool of nurse practitioners who have nursing nursing degrees that you know, can, can move back and forth between the roles to, you know, a lot of places where they where they've been COVID hotspots some of our nurse practitioners have have gone to those areas to work in nursing roles because, you know, that's where the need is and sometimes in the outpatient clinics, that's not where the need is right now that's a good point. So there's a couple of comments that came in, too. Before I go to the comments on that Dr. Dan or or Benjamin Did you have a point you want to add before I move on to the comments.
No I don't think so i i the only question that I had for Benjamin that was kicking around in my head is view. And this is bringing it back to the vaccine again, I hate to keep bringing that up, but just just briefly. Do you think that we that it's a lack of understanding of how the vaccine works, and if people could clearly see it and understand it that they'd be more willing to accept that vaccine.
I think that that is a component, um, I also think that the, the, maybe the the spread of negative outcomes or side effects has really just taken root in the black community, and it's almost, it's almost like confirmation bias, we are you know looking for something to say that buyers then good, and then that that spreads very, very quickly, and and so you know some of the yeses explaining how it works. But then maybe some of it is also putting more meat around the side effects and what that means from a real percentage standpoint. Yeah, you know,
I want to get to that too because I saw you know I'm in a physician. Facebook group, and I saw and there was a physician that wrote a statement to the effect of, I'm seeing a lot of people, you know because they've been talking about getting their vaccine and side effects. And that physician said, I see a lot of, it seems like a lot of people are getting very sick from the vaccine, and I and I responded like it's really dangerous for you to use the word very sick with the response to the vaccine, when people are also using the word very sick. In relation to getting the infection, because people who are very sick from the vaccine are feeling malaise for a day or two, versus people who who are getting very sick from the virus or intubated you know So, using the same word to mean two different things. And to compare the two it's it's I think it's a dangerous thing to do. So people have to be really careful about the words that they use, and the context that it's used in.
Okay I got I gotta give you this Oh, that was a good point right there. Okay. That is so true we could just miss misuse a word. And it just throws the whole conversation off. Wow, that's a good point.
The other thing about that Dr. Chu is the use of the word a lot, right, it makes me nervous too, you know, a lot of people are getting Bell's Palsy really Joe. Yeah, a lot. I guess you've seen it a lot in your social media feed. That is a big difference.
And it's the same amount that the general population that doesn't get the vaccine gets Bell's palsy. That's right.
Yeah, exactly. Man, that's a great point. Okay. All right, so let's go to the comments and then I have a question for you guys, I'm gonna lighten it up after this. Okay. So, go ahead. Joe with the comments wherever comments we're.
Okay, so now I'll set up nearly 39,000 felt their Rn boards so great point hemorrhaging nurses. Alicia said I've been asked to come back to the hospital and I thought about it for a long time but I would be very slow and even when I express that to the recruiter, they were still like oh well you can still work at all these other places. And Ferris said best advice that I can give is, be honest, be transparent and be knowledgeable, that accurate information may be provided to our clients as well as community. Yeah. Alicia said yes, if people could wrap their heads around how does it work inside my body and an explanation of how will this not kill me. I wish we had learning courses available to explain it.
Hello. By the way, you guys don't know them, but a lot of these folks who are commenting. They're either either master trainer or doctor trained nurse practice folks. So there's a lot of smart people in this room I feel I don't feel so smart right now, surrounded by all you guys in them.
I don't know I feel like you roll this so the two of us on the,
you know, it feels smart you know anybody that's smart so that's a big deal, man.
Besides that you're the third the third one's a charm so
it's all good. Okay, so maybe guilt by association kind of thing. You guys,
you're the smartest person in the room you're in the wrong room.
Oh, I like that That's true, that's true. So I'm in the right room. Thank you. Alright so, he told me that
I was wanting to tell you that awesome okay let's give a shout out to Swati, can you tag Swati Joe. Let's say shout out to Swati okay from Dr. Chu. All right. Would You Rather, I want to give you a Would you rather question you right yes ready.
Okay. Do you want to do you want a future question, or do you want an uncomfortable question.
I say let's go on comfortable. Come on, that's only because I
trust you. Would you rather Would you rather have an itch, in the middle of your back all the time, or an eyelash in your eye all the time.
I gotta go with it in the back, man I cannot handle I see my eyes man,
I will lose my mind if
I'm with you on F.
Okay, which one you're gonna go with.
Yeah. I'll go with it.
Okay, so, so, so what why do you want to go with the Dodgers. What's your reason why
we can't scratch.
Yeah, it's it's in the middle of your back all the time.
Yeah, at least, can you like rub up against a tree like a bear does.
Yeah, of course. of course, as long as you get. But the thing is, as soon as you finish doing that, it's gonna it's again.
Yeah, and I know my eyelashes under my contact lenses.
Oh, yeah. That's true. That's a good point. Okay. And then I also have another another follow up. This is a follow up for you. This is a Never have I ever question. So tell me, tell me if you have or you've never with this. And guys in the comments I want you to answer my last question as well as this one okay this is gonna be hard guys, this is gonna really be hard. So Never have I ever disconnected for a week. No phone, no internet, no TV, nothing ever in the past ever ever have you ever ever disconnected for a week, no phone, no internet, no TV nothing. Have you.
When I was a kid, the phone was hooked to the wall there was no Internet, TV, it was a black and white. Does that count. This says no phone.
No phone, no TV, no internet, no.
Is it even possible in today's society can you think you can do it.
So, I mean I was gonna say that I don't know that I was there for a whole week but you know a lot of the national parks that we have, there's a reception is really bad there's literally no cell reception, or Wi Fi so like I had a phone, but I couldn't use it other than to take pictures. So, I mean that's the closest I would say to never have I ever.
So the bigger question is I'm curious. Do you feel that when you or your employees take a vacation, should that be at least a day or two out of that vacation where there is no phone no TV, no internet, what do you what do you guys think, what are your opinions comments to guys in the comments let me know what you think, too,
I'm thinking it's gotta be optional you can't require it, because now we're back to the same thing again You can't tell people when their time off. Ah, that's a good point I wouldn't expect them to have to be available when they're gone.
But would you recommend it as a physician. Sure. Yeah, of course. Of course. What do you think Benjamin.
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. You know it's particularly a know if it's work related, but uh, you know, we are in the NFL playoff season so it would be kind of tough to completely detach, you know, and you know the NBA trades going on. So I have some stuff that brings me joy I need to get real time updates cuz I don't want to be behind. But yeah, I would certainly encourage you to think it's good for the workforce.
Yeah. You know, I, I tell you, this last weekend. I took a news article, so I stopped watching the news from Friday Saturday Sunday. I started back up on Monday, not, not even watching it just looking at it on my phone, and reading this stuff, right, and, and, on Monday, I realized I didn't miss anything over the weekend. For any substance at all. Oh, once I reconnected with reading all that news again. It made me feel bad, huh. So now I'm on a week long new of sabbatical to see how it goes.
Interesting. Okay guys in the comments let us know what you guys think do you think maybe we could all support each other, maybe we could just pick a day. That doesn't mean the same day we just pick a day for ourselves you know what i'm just going to disconnect for the day.
Hashtag news bad news bad luck I like that I like that okay so Joe what kind of comments, do we have Oh wait, before that Sebastian will say something going oh very quick, well first I would agree with Dr. Dan because it's it's proven that news can really mess up what your mood right so so that I would be, but regarding suggesting, no screen. I'm going back home, most of the vaccine conversation, different people with with with different need with different belief, and we are we think that we know better. I have people in my team that that watching TV or being under phone is relaxing and then people in my team that are having access to their email and staying connected is less stressful than the fear of something going wrong. That's worse. So, so, so I think we need to trust that people are growing up and know what to do to disconnect as long as they have the time to disconnect and in the power to disconnect, if they choose so and and you know what that makes us all of us very different and that's the beauty, like so. So I would, I would Yep.
Okay. Sam Uranus oh man that was good. All right.
Yes. Got it.
There's an interesting thing here and we're all aware of the fact that we have no women on our panel today. And. And who are we as four guys five guys to be to say, we got a plan here just, just, this is what you had to do when you're on vacation I think yeah
that's true. And just for those who are watching just in case you just joined us. We did plan to have a female on the panel. That was the YT Brian, and Dr. Chu was nice enough to fill in. But we appreciate the fact that Dr. Chu joined us Thank you very much. Okay, so in the comments Joe what answers what our commenters saying, um so Noel said she would rather have the itch, in the middle of her back for sure. Um, my comment was, I actually once went camping for two weeks straight so I did not have a phone TV or what was the other one, internet, yeah no phone no internet, no TV, no all set. She's also disconnected for a whole week while camping and Alicia said that she has disconnected for a week, her brain freaked out for a little bit, and then got mad whenever she had to get back on the grid. And she said I would recommend that they disengage while out on vacation but I would definitely tell them they're banned from working while on vacation.
Interesting. Okay. But like to Sam's point that might create stress for some leaders or some people, because like oh no I what's gonna happen during that day that I'm not connected. I'm not working, you gotta trust you gotta trust your team. Yeah, and Alicia also wanted to say that she, she said but it's good to hear the male perspective and to understand your Fox.
Ah, see that, and you know that's a good point because even though on my panel it's all male we have overly, the wide majority This is female on the commenter so we are getting both sets of opinions, which I think is great. That's awesome. Pedro you got anything else that was okay. All right, so what what do you see that's coming up next I want to talk about future. Okay, so what's coming next, maybe late 2021 or 2022. What do you see in the future, sab traditionally you've been you've been my future guy so maybe you can start us off and then everybody else kind of piggyback on it.
Yeah, I'll get it rolling and I'll keep it to 2021 and I'll use this to reach make a prediction but I think it's a prediction that if we don't pay attention to it's gonna it's going to be quite painful for many organizations, so it's tricky when we go in period of crisis, especially in the economic crisis turnover go down right because you're in crisis. Therefore, people have less option to leave their job and go somewhere else right so unemployment go up, turnover go down and when turnover go down engagement go up because people are less tempted to complain about their employers, when they have less options to leave right so so so so the signs that you're getting. And then what's happening is the second that you come out of the economic crisis the second you're getting into the uptick turnover go back to the level that it was before. And then some. So, so that's what history showed us now. We never been into a crisis that has been a sprint and a marathon and an Aaron Newman I don't like the expression Ironman and Ironman human every single day for 10 months. Right. And we're out of it so we never fazed that. But if we use the concept of the economic crisis, what it means is that the second thing is going to get better turnover gonna go back to where it was. And then some. And then some. And those are the one that's going to leave. Then there's the one that's going to stay but are going to be exhausted or burned. And then even worse is the one that's going to stay that's going to be exhausted and burned but still working and doing mistakes. So, so, and that's something is going to be very new to the employment market or the, the employment landscape in healthcare in the US, and I understand right now on our brains are, how do we get through the surge, but if we don't spin our brain on, how can we find a way to protect our teammates, prevent them to leave, or have a contingency plan to give them the chance to be exhausted and go rest, that's going to bring that's going to bring a level of complexity. And the other thing in terms of turnover I'm gonna make another prediction, which I don't think ever really happened. I think we're gonna see a wave of turnover of people that are extremely engaged engaged. So, I love my company. I love my mission, and I'm leaving. And the reason that I want to leave is is you don't want to change industry. So I've been in healthcare for 10 months. It's misery, I need something else, or it's just gonna be. It's been so hard that even if I love my company. I just need a change of scenery. So we so so so no matter what you're going to want to do to retain them, they just gonna need to have a different feel a different workplace different colleagues to forget all the pain that they had to deal with for so long. So again, if your organization or your leaders or your HR is not thinking that way now. I think we're gonna get like Mike Tyson said right, you know, everybody have a plan until they get punched in the mouth, I think we're gonna get another punch in the mouth. Right. Yeah. Yep.
Right. Wow. That's powerful. Yeah, work on that culture now we got to work on the all the stuff we that that makes them want to be there, we need to capitalize on it now I would think right so.
Absolutely. I think the plan to do to attack this issue, need to start now. Yeah. Yeah, I
agree, if, if, organizations aren't willing to make the investment to take care of their people now. We're in trouble. It reminds me I got another picture for Eros because you know I think for retired st mime. You know when you're playing tug of war. The more people drop off the rope, the more difficult it is for the people that are still on the rope. And as people begin to fall off as we get through this disaster. It's going to be really difficult to stay on the rope and so the organizations that I think are that are going to do the best are going to be the ones that are willing to make the investment to take really good care of their people. If you know if I was running an organization right now, I would be looking at the permit survey. It's, you know, put together by Michelle McQuaid out of Australia, you look at, positive emotion, engagement relationships meaning at work, sense of accomplishment and the age that she added on at the end is health. Let's start, you know, instead of talking about burnout and what are we going to do to survive burnout let's talk about what does it mean, how do we thrive. What does it look like to have a team that's healthy and thriving in the middle of a disaster. And how can we equip people with the tools that they need to take care of themselves first, and then take care of the other people on their teams, the National Institutes of the National Academy of Medicine came out with a model about wellness and they put. They put patient well being at the very center. And I went, Oh my gosh, you guys got it wrong. I almost killed my team in Haiti. And I think I told you this story before us you know we went we got there on about day five or six because of transportation issues. And when we got to King's Hospital in Port au Prince where we were assigned. There was a line of people waiting for us with open fractures and bone sticking out for five or six days, you know when that happens in the United States people are like you know I've been waiting for 45 minutes where's the doctor it's not five or six days. Open dead bone, you know, and and so we got in, in, you know, hospital after a disaster after an earthquake looks like somebody shook it and then put it back down its foundation. They don't have plastic IV bottles or they have glass. So there's broken glass everywhere, we got it and cleaned the building up mopped everything up. Got it. The anesthesia machine working the Canadians brought us another one and dropped it on the roof and we brought that down, we were up and going. and three days into this somebody says hey diamond. Did you see the crack. As I said no what crack and they said, Well, come with me and they took me out front and the whole operating suite was cantilevered off the building about 15 feet above the ground. And there was a crack this wide, where it attached to the building, you know and and I know what happened. And I know I'm the one to blame because you know incident command structure. I didn't have a safety officer assigned which means that I am the safety. And I missed it. and the reason I missed it is because I was putting my eyes on taking care of those patients. And I know better. If I don't take good care of myself, and I don't take good care of my team when I'm in a disaster. Those patients will suffer. So, I would use. I'd use a tool like the perma survey. You know, and really make some good investments in some programs on taking great care of your staff helping them take care of themselves, because if we don't, we're gonna lose them.
Yeah. Incredibly costly. Well, I cannot believe we're already basically almost at the end of this hour. Joe Can you quickly just go over a couple of comments and then I want to get them get their last thoughts before we close out.
Yes. So Alicia said, that's exactly what happened to me and it wasn't even the pandemic. I needed a mental and physical break from nursing. He also said a healthy team takes a constant effort for all parties and practicing self care, just my opinion, if I'm on an energy, sorry, one second I'm trying to. Okay, is if I'm on energy high for weeks at a time and pushing my staff beyond their limits that might be good for me, but for them it spells disaster.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So let's let's just finish out here. Any final thoughts you want to share let's go with you, Benjamin would fall thoughts will share with our staff, our group today.
Yeah, I guess I'll say you know I'm certainly on the lookout out for it you know how maybe the gig economy is going to impact nursing in the healthcare workforce, right, to potentially you know look at giving them more power over their schedules over their days, you know, setting their own rates on how much they are willing to, you know, to make them work, and the optimist in me is certainly hoping that there is a group of maybe school aged kids that saw the pandemic. I've learned a lot about, you know, the some of the science and has sparked an interest in the healthcare industry and, and I certainly hope that as organizations we take advantage of maybe that interest and try and look at getting creative on how we partner with the school districts to really, you know, supercharge. The, the future talent.
That's right, and Dr. Dr. Chu.
Yeah, no, I actually heard that, you know, because of the pandemic med school applications skyrocketed. This year,
oh wow yeah so i think that's that's promising that to be a quick interruption here we got to get, we got another visitor here.
Yeah, who we got here Benjamin.
Are you. This is a little bit. This is Benji jr man he's love it, I love it. Good to see you, buddy. I got to finish up where we're saying, No, that was all I know I appreciate you inviting me I appreciate hearing everybody's perspective, it was really great discussion.
Awesome, awesome, and Sam.
I'll go back to what I was saying, I think, I think a lot of the smart brains right now are getting us to the surge in paying attention to the, to the strategic plan that is three to five years from now, which is all the right thing to do. I, there's a window between five nine months from now, and that window is going to feel extremely different. And if that's not part of the plan, it's going to hurt. So just bring your attention there.
We can't say you didn't warn us. We appreciate that no and you know and I, I actually see it from my perspective to this, what you're talking about. So I predicted it a little bit too early I predicted it would happen, the end of last year, but of course we didn't you know things didn't progress with the, with the, with the coronavirus, but yeah I see the same thing that what you're you're you're saying as well. Dan will finish.
Yeah, I just what a privilege to hang out with all of you today, and and kick around these, these ideas, this is so important that we get this right. And that we're willing to come together and bring in different voices. Invite lots of different types of people into this conversation. Because we have some, we have some tough times coming up. But I am hopeful because we can come together and do some amazingly good things this is what we got. I mean I just look back over the last 10 months and think wow I'm so much smarter now than I was at the beginning of the year. I've learned so many things about myself. I'm looking forward to continuing to learn and grow. But thank you Ross, and. And thanks the rest of you if you guys have some great insight oh my gosh oh yeah I appreciate it, we would definitely appreciate it I have a little little Benji here too to help us out towards the end. Put a smile on our face, I was able to get a few of the ladies together because there's so many who commented today. And this is what they had to say, guys.
So anyway yeah thanks again you guys were you guys were great today. Those were the comments That's for you guys to thank you for being here and helping us get through this subject. My little computer here I'm trying to get it back to the screen there we go. But thanks again appreciate everyone thanks for all your comments, I would like quickly for you guys in the comments, let me know, what's your. If you could name the street, you live on whatever you wanted to name it, what would you call the street you live on all this fun no drive.
I feel honored. Thank you. Before we close out any ideas what what would you name the street if you could name your street anything you wanted to name What would you name it.
Are you and that was way too random.
I stopped my panel, everything else you guys answered very easily.
I thought you asked in the chat box I mean it's
I was asking him.
I'm gonna start asking that in my interviews now just to throw people off. Don't.
The first thing I just thought about is easy street I will live on Easy Street.
Yeah, Margarita streets, there we go, like Martini Street,
I like that. Yeah, either one. Okay, awesome. Well thanks again guys let's say bye to everyone. Bye everyone.